I'm in IT since three decades O_o , sadly I started my career on the "wrong" side of the force... Because, like it has been said in this thread, some big company enforce the use, training, etc.. of their own product (like for example selling one OS with all the computer sell world-wide... )

Anyways, before even touch a FLOSS OS, I read (for >= 3 years )a lot about FLOSS, GNU, Copy left etc.. philosophy

I could, like a lot of users or even so call IT experts, choose an OS where you push only one button

and it does the necessary for you (and more, that you didn't ask, and are unaware of. )

Regarding systemd, a lot has been already written about it, but I summarize the big lines there https://rentry.co/systemd_d4mn ( feel free to commit   )

So I've tried a couples of gnu/Linux distro ( even under systemd ) better to forge your own experience...

And obviously (we are on devuan forum) I choose Devuan as my main Distro and recently I could witness with my own eye and expertise the bloated condition of systemd on a light computer ( SBC ) OMG.

The majority of the population are followers, meaning they follow ! they do not lead... nor forge their own opinion or experience... and of course :

I couldn't say it better.

Finally if you (@oui) take advices from g00.. ? You still have a long road in front of you, Here something to start this journey.
https://degooglisons-internet.org/en/, EFF.org, FSF.org, GNU.org

Huge thanks to all the Devuan developpers and ~commiters

Am I tight?

@fsmithred you have all my respect , i know the amount of work and time and not being close to the loved ones to write the scripts that others are using to create their distros.

I had the pleasure to write my own scripts and only the debugging and testing, until you make it work with no issues kills you .

So @OUI you need to understand sometimes developers will not just respond and be polite, if you would get me in the mood of some script not working i wold probably go insane .

Still i know you are a good person and everyone likes to help each other ....

Last but not least ---- Devuan is Debian with blocked systemD packages, logically the more and more systemD gets integrated in everything and other coders are changing their programs acordingly, so yes Devuan will go on it`s way .... with no SystemD if that will break some programs .... will see, but in the same time is our duty, the community, to fight and find ways to make everything work and help others in the process.

Thank You Devuan For everything you have offered !!!

In my case, I always base my installs on Refracta, which is a well-done Devuan respin by the same guy you're butthurt over.

God forbid!
I had the “pleasure” to try this set of programs for the sake of experience.
Shutting down the computer only through the root terminal, and after su, the regular user’s programs stopped running altogether.
Such crafts are only for punishment.

Careful, whining about whining about politics is still whining about politics.

OTOH, maybe if we derail this thread hard enough it will spontaneously combust. Once the stinky smoke clears, I expect that'll be a relief for everyone involved.

For my part, proud gate-goblin since 1999. Somebody gotta keep the riff-raff at bay, or we'll be up to our necks in idiots and activists 'afore the week is out.

The Linux Foundation is pimped by corporations (including Microsoft and Google), so they have a huge influence on Linux. Systemd's creator even works for Microsoft now. As well, Debian proper is living on borrowed time. Instead of focusing on giving the users what they want (a system that "just works"), they chose to suck up to politics, which already drove away a few maintainers worth their salt. One of them is now happily a part of the Arch staff, where he ironically feels more accepted in.

Ultimately, Linus Torvalds sold out to the hurt feelings crowd, likely as blackmail from the women in his family. Meanwhile, Theo de Raadt of OpenBSD refuses to be a pushover, and anyone whining about politics on their mailing list gets the boot.

that is not doing FOSS a favor in anyway shape or form

Dunno about FOSS in general, but it'd definitely improve the SNR on this board, and good riddance.

Not at all surprised if fsmithred was a bit short with this one, I would be even shorter... Likely "go away troll" followed by a resounding *plonk*.

And no, this is not just a language barrier. English not being your first language might explain the aggressive and hyperbolic word choice to some extent, but the pattern of trash-talk, shouting and multiple exclamation marks is 100% intentional flamebait.

A: elitst (which is why I detest the archlinux community for their abuse just asking a question in their irc channel and because it wasnt their distro getting heckled and scoffed at)

B: the demon that is windows needs to die not live forever! Besides it hurts the climate using that garbage os due to data centers collecting constantly among other things.

Point being, your suggestion of going back to windows is not above and beyond, its beneath and towards an endless abyss.

In my case, I always base my installs on Refracta, which is a well-done Devuan respin by the same guy you're butthurt over. No one distro out of the box is for everyone. That's just the reality of FLOSS. You are more than welcome to stick to Debian or another distro... In fact, you could go above and beyond by doing us all a favor: go back to Windows 10/11/whatever and stay there. Their support team at least will get a paycheck for babysitting you.

1) Mullvad is an example that integration of third party software under Devuan becomes more difficult.

2) You should never too much trust to any vpn, this is clear. My intention to use such services is:

https://archivista.ch/cms/en/news/wireg … th-2023-v/

3) I had the pleasure to get in touch with oui. He commented my thread about avmultimedia. I personally had not the impression that he was interested in AVMultimedia, the discussion you found here:

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=49104#p49104

4) My impression was/is, a) such a bad german does not anyone use that speaks German as primary language and b) most of the post is nonsense

5) I made a note with 'report' and got an answer from the administrator that probably this specific post does not make any sense but so far oui was ok.

6) It is difficult to find out if someone is just disappointed or it is more a troll. In this sense, I think a know what oui intention is but I'm not 100% sure about it.

7) I really like Devuan and use it currently with great pleasure for my AVMultimedia distro, but as I tried to explain in my initial post. As soon as you go to third party software it can become difficult to get it working. Just today I wanted to run a docker image. After one hour I gave it up. May be this is a problem about docker because the change their software to much, but again, docker does not run because it says there is no known os available.

8) After all I think (as I said in my initial post), today it probably is more difficult to be "Debian" compliant. SystemD is widely used and probing an os to decline installation if it is not 100% the right version of ubuntu/debian/fedora seems to be common sense for a lot of developers.

So the result can be that people have troubles running devuan as a daily user distribution. I don't have any solution but I think some reflection about it would not be a bad thing.

...Mullvad should be mentioned here as an example..

Just recently I came across... a colleague asked a question on one of the forums: “Do you completely trust your VPN provider? Don’t delude yourself with illusions...”

But the essence of the topic is different - a person uses a tool, appropriated its name and throws mud at the author, the Devuan team and the community at the same time.

Well, what happened? SystemD established itself as the standard tool in almost all x86 distributions of Linux. SystemD offers many tools. Whether they are all useful and necessary is open to debate. However, many distributions are based on it. But I don't think anyone here will want to deny that Debian can no longer run without SystemD. Frankly spoken, this was not mentioned at the beginning and therefore there is probably Devuan.

The consequence, however, is that these tools are being used more and more in DEB packages. Mullvad should be mentioned here as an example. Due to the fact that systemctl is used for the installation, the installation fails:

systemctl enable "/usr/lib/systemd/system/mullvad-daemon.service"
systemctl start mullvad-daemon.service || echo "Failed to start mullvad-daemon.service"
systemctl enable "/usr/lib/systemd/system/mullvad-early-boot-blocking.service"

The question can now be raised as to why there is no systemctl tool under Devun (or is there)? Now the installation of Mullvad only fails at the very end, the software is installed. However, when I create a script for OpenRC or InitV, the service mullvad still refuses to work, because mullvad-daemon queries the "operating system" and finds that Devuan is not present:

[ERROR] Error: Failed to reset firewall policy
Caused by: Error while processing an incoming netlink message
Caused by: Operation not supported (os error 95)

Mullvad is just one example. Such cases have become more frequent in recent years, especially in recent months. Now, the source code of Mullvad is open source, but I would have to "fork" it to get it to work. In my case, I preferred to write a script directly that performs the wireguard setup. This script is system-independent and has approx. 80 lines and approx. 2.5 KB in size. In contrast, the Mullvad package requires approx. 144 MB on the hard disk (currently 485657 lines of code).

If I take the liberty of pointing out such "bloated" code monsters from time to time (e.g. at linuxnews.de), well, I don't really feel taken seriously. Ultimately, however, everyone has to know for themselves what suits them and what doesn't. Personally, I am very grateful to Devuan that there is an alternative. Perhaps there will come a time when Devuan becomes independent because the "role model" Debian contains so much SystemD that it can no longer serve as a template. I don't want that to happen, but I think it could be the case at some point (in a few years).

In my life, I have learned that if you don't "swim" with the mainstream, you shouldn't expect too much understanding. It is probably simply part of the "majority" that these alternatives are not really considered important. However, everyone benefits from diversity. This applies not only to the Devuan → Debian relationship, but also to those who use Windows or Mac. But when I think that Edge, for example, wants to prevent the creation of screen copies... Ok, then I'm happy to be in the minority...