My point was that debian adds it as a dependency for their own reasons, reasons that aren't related to users wanting it or needing it.
Aka, it doesn't  need to depend is a better way to say it.
They have ulterior motives.
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=41570#p41570

Do you mean corruption? It might be something else, a sort of millitant Cargo cult, perhaps.

If, for example, you may try to install the latest version of wxMaxima from Homebrew (on Devuan),
brew will install all "dependencies" of wxMaxima, including pulseaudio, systemd, xorg, etc.

$ brew deps -n wxmaxima | grep "pulseaudio\|pipewire\|systemd\|xorg"
xorgproto
pulseaudio
systemd
xorg-server

$ brew deps --missing wxmaxima | grep "pulseaudio\|pipewire\|systemd\|xorg"
pulseaudio
systemd
xorg-server
xorgproto

The logic of "dependencies" is very simple. If wxMaxima was compiled for Linux, it depends on Linux.
Therefore, Homebrew will install its own version of Linux inside your Devuan.
Notice, however, that Homebrew does not yet install systemd on MacOS.
But they will install it in the near future.
In any case, MacOS users can already install PulseAudio on their MacBooks with the help Homebrew.

I do know that I can inspect the scripts from a .deb package by unpacking it like a zip file, and then I can read the install scripts.

A bit of investigation involved, but it may be worth it.

Just recently I got another folder, called dconf as well. lol.

The adventure/journey continues. :-)

Funny thing, although I have got rid of most pulse-audio packages (I still have libpulse... and pipewire-pulse...)

occasionally a new folder is made in /home/glenn/ "pulse". It is empty, but I wonder how it is put there.

still a work in progress, pulse is like a virus, hard to pin down and eradicate.

I will try the example above.

Since "depends" is the technical term that the package manager uses, it can't not be a right word, even if there might also be other more descriptive ones.

*shrug*

Whatever it's called, it would be nice to have a generalized list of packages to avoid, (along with reasons why, how, what the alternatives are, etc).

My point was that debian adds it as a dependency for their own reasons, reasons that aren't related to users wanting it or needing it.

Aka, it doesn't  need to depend is a bettr way to say it.

They have ulterior motives.

apt rdepends libpulse0
libpulse0
Reverse Depends:
  Dépend: libpulse-dev (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: xnview (>= 0.99.4)
  Recommande: virtualbox-6.1
  Recommande: virtualbox-5.2
  Dépend: openjdk-8-jre (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libsdl2-2.0-0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libxine2-misc-plugins (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: vlc-plugin-base (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: libsvoxeas1 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: sonic-visualiser (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: retroarch (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: qmmp (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: owntone (>= 5.0)
  Dépend: obs-studio (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libobs0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libmyth-33 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mpv (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: mplayer (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mpd (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mame (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: kodi (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: gstreamer1.0-plugins-good (>= 2.0)
  Dépend: gpac-modules-base (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libavdevice60 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libavdevice59 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libavdevice58 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libdrumstick-rt-backends (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: deadbeef (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: darkice-full (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: avidemux-plugins (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: audacious-plugins (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libasound2-plugins (>= 0.99.1-1~)
  Dépend: xmms2-plugin-pulse (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: qemu-system-gui (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: openmpt123 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: openjdk-8-jre (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: lives (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libwine-development (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libguac-client-vnc0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: kodi-bin (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: forked-daapd (>= 5.0)
  Dépend: conky-all (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: aiscm (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: vice (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: fbzx (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: nvidia-openjdk-8-jre (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: librhvoice-audio2 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: zytrax (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: yambar (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: xsystem35 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: xmp (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: wys (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: wf-recorder (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: webcamoid-plugins (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: waybar (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: warzone2100 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: vokoscreen-ng (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: vlc-plugin-base (>= 1.0)
  Dépend: ukui-settings-daemon (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: ukui-media (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: ukui-control-center (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: twpsk (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: twclock (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: tone-generator (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: terminatorx (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: strawberry (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: squeezelite-pulseaudio (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: sonic-visualiser (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: snd-gui-pulse (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: snapclient (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: simplescreenrecorder (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: sidplayfp (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: shairport-sync (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: retroarch (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: retro-runner (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: quisk (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: qsstv (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: qrq (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: qmmp (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: qemu-system-gui (>= 0.99.1)
  Recommande: python3-pyglet
  Dépend: pulsemixer
  Dépend: pulseeffects (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio-utils (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio-module-zeroconf (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio-module-raop (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio-module-lirc (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio-module-jack (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio-module-gsettings (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio-module-bluetooth (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio-equalizer (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: pulseaudio (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: psk31lx (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: projectm-pulseaudio (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: praat (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: polybar (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: plasma-pa (>= 5.0.0~)
  Dépend: phosh (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: pavumeter (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: pavucontrol-qt (>= 4.0)
  Dépend: pavucontrol (>= 15)
  Dépend: pasystray (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: paprefs (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: pamixer (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: pamix (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: osspd-pulseaudio (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: openmpt123 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: obs-studio (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: musescore3 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: musescore (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mumble (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: multimon-ng (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mpv (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: mplayer-gui (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mplayer (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mpg123 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mpd (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: morse (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: minimodem (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mhwaveedit (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mate-settings-daemon (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mangler (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: mame (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: lxqt-panel (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: lomiri-telephony-service (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: lmms (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: liquidsoap (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libxine2-misc-plugins (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: libwine (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libsphinxbase3 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libsox-fmt-pulse (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libsoundio2 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libsdl2-2.0-0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libsdl1.2debian (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: librtaudio6 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libqt6multimedia6 (>= 5.0)
  Dépend: libqt5multimedia5-plugins (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libqt5multimedia5 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libpulsedsp (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: libpulse-ocaml (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libpulse-mainloop-glib0 (= 16.1+dfsg1-2+b1)
  Dépend: libpulse-jni (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libcmtspeechdata-utils (>= 9.0)
  Dépend: libpipewire-0.3-modules (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libphonon4qt5-4 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libpcaudio0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Recommande: libopenal1 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libobs0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libmpv2 (>= 0.99.4)
  Dépend: libmikmod3 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libmediastreamer12 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libmatemixer0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: liblingot0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libkf5pulseaudioqt3 (>= 5.0.0~)
  Dépend: libgvnc-1.0-0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libguvcview-2.1-2 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libfreerdp-client2-2 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libfluidsynth3 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libestools2.5 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libespeak1 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libdrumstick-rt-backends (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libdmr0.1
  Dépend: libcvc0 (>= 12.99.3)
  Dépend: libcubeb0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libcsound64-6.0 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libasound2-plugins (>= 0.99.1-1~)
  Dépend: libcanberra-pulse (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libavdevice59 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: kodi-bin (>= 0.99.4)
  Suggère: libao4
  Dépend: liballegro-audio5.2 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: libags-audio4 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: lebiniou (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: kwave (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gnome-settings-daemon (>= 12.99.3)
  Dépend: kmix (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: kappanhang (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: jami-daemon (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: i3status (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: hydrogen (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gtick (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gstreamer1.0-plugins-good (>= 2.0)
  Dépend: gsequencer (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gqrx-sdr (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gpac-modules-base (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: godot3-runner (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: godot3 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gnunet (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gnuais (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gnome-shell (>= 13)
  Dépend: budgie-control-center (>= 13.0~)
  Dépend: gnome-network-displays (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gnome-flashback (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gnome-control-center (>= 13.0~)
  Dépend: gmerlin-plugins-base (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: gbsplay (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: freedv (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: fldigi (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: fische (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: enlightenment (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: elektroid (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: ebook-speaker (>= 5.0)
  Dépend: dpf-plugins-common (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: dolphin-emu (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: deepin-movie
  Dépend: darkice (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: daisy-player (>= 5.0)
  Dépend: conky-all (>= 0.99.1)
  Suggère: cmus (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: clementine (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: ckb-next (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: chuck (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: chromium-shell (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: chromium (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: cava (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: callaudiod (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: cairo-dock-impulse-plug-in (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: budgie-core (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: aegisub (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: blender (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: baresip-x11 (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: ayatana-indicator-sound (>= 5.0)
  Dépend: audmes (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: audiotools (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: audacious-plugins (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: ares (>= 0.99.1)
  Dépend: ardour (>= 0.99.1)

*shrug*

Whatever it's called, it would be nice to have a generalized list of packages to avoid, (along with reasons why, how, what the alternatives are, etc).

No mention in this thread of other packages that come from PulseAudio's source package, e.g. libpulse0, pulseaudio-utils, and others.

Blocking/pinning pulseaudio* and libpulse* would handle them all, but there appears to be a lot of software that depends on libpulse0 package...

"depends" isn't the right word(s), because it works without it on other distros and/or operating systems.

"Forced to have" is more accurate due to the nature of bloatware that keeps getting added over and over again.

Pipewire and pulseaudio are good things to block.

alsasound was always an approach I preferred back then when I used devuan alot.

Blocking/pinning pulseaudio* and libpulse* would handle them all, but there appears to be a lot of software that depends on libpulse0 package... :/

zapper wrote:

btw,  jwmkit has some features to fix this issue.  Works nicely, although you still need alsa-utils  installed even if its not online while sndio is and alsa-sndio.

Sndio can do per application stream which alsa cannot ever do on its own last I checked.

Although maybe this has changed or isn't true?

sndio is a good audio server.  Although you must use Daedalus/Bookworm if you want to use sndio because the package is way out of date in early versions of Devuan/Debian.

Also because of this JWMKit's sndio functionality has never been tested on Devu(bi)an.  So I can't promise it works, but it does works well on other distros.  I'll have to experiment with it when I have a chance.

Well, if I had to guess, it isn't up to date on devuan, because there isn't enough interest. Pulseaudio/pipewire has more currently.

Talk about feed the blob...

Aka, sndio can do the same thing thanks to you.  If people didn't always pick the easy way, these bloated alternatives, like the stuff redhat provides, would have never succeeded.

You don't feed a bully, you cut them off and don't let them push you around.

When I said blob, I was though referring to the size like that old cheesy movie would have defined it as.

btw,  jwmkit has some features to fix this issue.  Works nicely, although you still need alsa-utils  installed even if its not online while sndio is and alsa-sndio.

Sndio can do per application stream which alsa cannot ever do on its own last I checked.

Although maybe this has changed or isn't true?

sndio is a good audio server.  Although you must use Daedalus/Bookworm if you want to use sndio because the package is way out of date in early versions of Devuan/Debian.

Also because of this JWMKit's sndio functionality has never been tested on Devu(bi)an.  So I can't promise it works, but it does works well on other distros.  I'll have to experiment with it when I have a chance.

zapper wrote:

the software using it, intentionally has more support for pipewire

But isn't it the other way around? PipeWire provides the API needed to route sound correctly but ALSA has no such functionality (AFAIK).

Here's a(n old) list of what ALSA can't do:

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Softwa … SA/Issues/

Trigger warning: Lennart wrote it

I actually realized something... I dislike his software, yes. But I don't hate him, redhat however, is the crux of the issue and even then I always hate them.

Sometimes emotions in me burst out, but in general, if there is ever a reason to hate out of any of these people, its people like the redhat leaders who are willing to destroy everything around them by bloating software nonstop for profit, etc...

This all being said, feel nothing but annoyance towards them right now. My simple point is this is part of a much larger problem which has not been fixed yet.

Its not just poettering, this goes well beyond him.

Microsoft, Google, Redhat, corporations as evil as them, are run by the core problem, which is prideful people who only feed good if they are persuing their greed and successfully annoying and in some cases harming people in general.

So yeah, don't care in either direction much about Poettering. Yes he is an ass, but nothing compared to the people above him.

He didn't get this freedom to abuse his power without the people above him.

Btw,  there is a better solution to the whole alsa situation the pulseaudio or pipewire.

Its called sndio.

btw,  jwmkit has some features to fix this issue.  Works nicely, although you still need alsa-utils  installed even if its not online while sndio is and alsa-sndio.

Sndio can do per application stream which alsa cannot ever do on its own last I checked.

Although maybe this has changed or isn't true?

But yeah,  never knew how to do it nor do I currently.

PA and PW act as sound-servers and wish to route every audio instance through (whichever chosen) them (including OSSs btw), so to have a uniformed interface/framework for users as well as APIs for programmers' software to interact with. Dealing (users) with multiple audio-devices, concurrent I/O audio events, various and different audio libraries simultaneously, various frequencies ... and so on; this is not always easy when interacting 'directly' with ALSA as it may involve creating and/or editing configuration files which may end up very complex, say ~,asoundrc; PA (I guess) was an effort to address this moving forwards towards user-friendliness and, as mentioned, consistency.

For me ALSA without any intermediate layer works well; however, as things has evolved, more and more software are written expecting a sound-server dealing with the various applications' audio-instances in mind, hence decrease in support for ALSA 'only'. APulse seems to work alright though(?).

As I used to work on and with DAWs, for me, therefore! , PA (and probably PW which I don't know) is just a bloody potter about interfering (JACK) and drawing resources from the system. I ditched PA early on so I should be a bit humble with regard the present status (all though not quite), but however you look at it, it basically is a layer which provides no extra potential, just an easier configuration and management path.

Olav