Does this address your concern about a forum member deleting all their posts depriving other forum members of content potentially useful to Devuan users?

I don't have that specific concern.  It was head on a stick who used the term "vandalise" and I borrowed that term as it seemed quite apt.

The point was brought up by golinux in post #3 and in later posts.

I have no dog in this race, but I'm struggling to see how archive.org is the answer for a number of reasons, but mainly that it's proposing a third party as a solution to a problem, which didn't seem like much of a problem in the first place - and "make your own backups of threads [in case someone goes on a deleting spree]", just doesn't seem like a good solution or policy in any case.

If this were a mailing list, you'd have to make your contributions and stick to them - rather than editing and changing things around at later dates - it would also be a problem for those prone to such tantrums that they feel the need to remove all of their content.  If it were a "wiki" - and it's not - there would be an edit history and a whole set of tools suitable for writing guides/articles/instructions.

This is why I suggested 24 hours - as far as I'm concerned that's more than enough to correct grammatical or factual errors and if not, then if you need to change something at a later date, you would surely post an addendum in the form of a new post?  This would immediately bump the thread as well and draw attention to new content/updates being made.

Vernon wrote:

What do you mean by vandalizing? Is a poster, regretting some pejorative comment and deleting the contents of their post considered vandalizing by you? Please be specific.

No, "vandalising" as in someone who goes through and systematically clears out all of their posting history.

Thanks for your clarification.

By removing, as you suggested the Delete button, a poster, assuming editing without time limits are restored,  would only have the ability to remove the post contents leaving an empty post. If the previous contents of the empty post were not already quoted in a reply, a Devuan forum visitor could simply paste the thread URL into archive.org if they were curious about the previous post contents.

If archive.org does not contain the thread, this means that no Devuan forum user thought the post valuable enough to take a few seconds and archive the post at
https://web.archive.org/save

A sticky post could be made notifying forum users that post authors have the ability to modify or delete the contents of posts at any time and if they feel that the post is valuable as-is and should be preserved, they should take a couple of seconds and submit the URL to
https://web.archive.org/save

This preserves the the ability of posters to Edit and delete the contents of posts at any time and allows the Devuan community and even casual visitors of the Devuan forum to determine which posts are valuable enough to preserve for posterity.

This also adheres to the Devuan administrators stated goals of

• A community driven forum

• Freedom

• No additional Forum administrative tasks

Does this address your concern about a forum member deleting all their posts depriving other forum members of content potentially useful to Devuan users?

What do you mean by vandalizing? Is a poster, regretting some pejorative comment and deleting the contents of their post considered vandalizing by you? Please be specific.

No, "vandalising" as in someone who goes through and systematically clears out all of their posting history.

You can argue endlessly over how a forum is administered, but when all is said and done - they "administer" and you do not.  Far from being about "freedom and democracy", most web forums are in fact "dictatorships", operated by individuals, or groups who will tolerate your presence as long as they have want to - but they don't have to, nor do they have to make any changes to policy to suit your own personal preferences.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly and have not stated anything contrary. However, just as the forum administrators have the right to administer their forum the way they want, I have the right to continue to highlight how making secret editing policy changes which were not asked for by the community are not consistent with their stated goals of Freedom and a  Community driven forum - at least as long as the site administrators give me that right.

I think removal of the delete button is a reasonable compromise as long as unlimited time limits for edits were restored. Posters could still remove the contents of their posts via edit leaving an empty post.

Well here we disagree. 24 hours is not enough time for a poster to mark an issue solved nor is it enough time for me, at least to complete my posts and correct all my typos and grammatical errors.

What do you mean by vandalizing? Is a poster, regretting some pejorative comment and deleting the contents of their post considered vandalizing by you? Please be specific.

Agree

Based on the response of the Manjaro community to their administrators losing many of their posts due to no backups and then instituting radical Forum changes, the critical and direct responses to the Devuan Forum administrators instituting secret policy changes should not have been unexpected.

Again, your penchant towards secrecy and authoritarianism seem contrary to the stated goals of Devuan being about freedom.

This and some of your other comments, come across as very "forum social justice warrior".  You can argue endlessly over how a forum is administered, but when all is said and done - they "administer" and you do not.  Far from being about "freedom and democracy", most web forums are in fact "dictatorships", operated by individuals, or groups who will tolerate your presence as long as they have to - but they don't have to, nor do they have to make any changes to policy to suit your own personal preferences.  For the latter, you rent some hosting, buy a domain and do your own thing - with yourself established as dictator.

Free software projects are very similar, in that those who write the code and/or pay the bills, get to be involved in the decision making - users are "along for the ride" and get to use the results for free.  That's how pretty much all free software works.

Anyway... without a post edit/revision history feature (a la vBulletin), I think it's reasonable to establish a time limit, but I really don't see the case for any secrecy.  I would also second the suggestion of removal of the delete button altogether.

24 hours seems the most reasonable amount of time for edits.  It will greatly reduce the kind of impact from a disgruntled member "vandalisng" things, but without restricting members from making reasonable edits.

In my opinion, it is better to state it clearly - and not base any policy on theoretical trolls "gaming" the system.  I would add that any policy based on trolls, or "countermeasures", which are aimed at troublemakers, but which affect and perhaps alienate the majority of ordinary/decent forums users are not good policies.

0.02

(golinux yawns . . .)

You are so busy blustering and demanding, you really didn't think that through, did you. A time limit would only be a "secret" until it was triggered, then it wouldn't be a secret anymore would it. LOL! And if it's never triggered, what does it matter?  You just want to latch on to anything to argue and demand.  That energy coming from someone who has been here only about 2 months is quite out of sync with this peaceful, collaborative project and disrespectful of the hours of love we have poured into Devuan since the fork.

(golinux wishes this forum had an ignore feature)

Obviously a secret is only a secret until it is revealed. The problem is that you propose an editing time limit as a secret in the first place. I and other users would have this sword of Damocles hanging above us wondering when this editing time limit would kick in. I have taken more than a day to complete posts. It's important for at least me, to know how much editing time I have.

Again, your penchant towards secrecy and authoritarianism seem contrary to the stated goals of Devuan being about freedom.

golinux wrote:

Vernon wrote:

Why undisclosed?

Because that's the only way to insure that the outcome will be completely random and not engineered by someone with an axe to grind.

Everyone has an axe to grind. My axe is called Freedom and Openness. Based on your advocacy of post editing time limits and keeping those limits secret, your axe is apparently called something quite different.

You are so busy blustering and demanding, you really didn't think that through, did you. A time limit would only be a "secret" until it was triggered, then it wouldn't be a secret anymore would it. LOL! And if it's never triggered, what does it matter?  You just want to latch on to anything to argue and demand.  That energy coming from someone who has been here only about 2 months is quite out of sync with this peaceful, collaborative project and disrespectful of the hours of love we have poured into Devuan since the fork.

(golinux wishes this forum had an ignore feature)

Vernon wrote:

golinux wrote:

The reaction to the current option sends a message that should be heeded.  My suggestion would be to experiment with the edit timeout window starting at X number of months/days (to be collectively decided and undisclosed).

Why undisclosed?

Because that's the only way to insure that the outcome will be completely random and not engineered by someone with an axe to grind.

Everyone has an axe to grind. My axe is called Freedom and Openness. Based on your advocacy of post editing time limits and keeping those limits secret, your axe is apparently called something quite different - authoritarianism and secrecy perhaps?

Don't see how this is fundamentally different from Debian making some packages systemd only and not telling users which ones they are to see who would notice. Freedom and Openness are fundamental principles to be adhered to, not experimented with.

1. Return things to the way they were with no time limits on editing and deletion of posts and inform users that they can archive any Devuan Forum threads they deem important at https://web.archive.org/save

   • Adheres to Freedom and Openness Principles

     • Allows the community to determine which threads are important to archive

     • Allows posters the freedom to edit and delete their posts

   • No additional Forum system administration requirements

Your proposal impinges on Freedom and Openness and results in additional Forum System Administration.

Now, due to my praiseworthy effort, that way of acting is no longer possible. Well rather, it is now a restricted ability available only to those who sports the role of Administrator, as well as of course, to those who have access to the server.

I see that @Vernon, and probably others, think of this differently from me. Since we (including me) want this to be a forum that in principle is owned by its contributors, I will want to pursue this discussion a bit to understand what the difference is. Especially if I am supposed to dive into the code again to make a variation or retraction of my improvements.

My start point was that I see all threads and posts as valuable, and therefore it should not be available for posters to change or delete their posts once they've made them, except for a grace period for the purpose spelling and grammar corrections. Perhaps it should even be stronger than now; that deletion should only be available until there is a subsequent post.

Maybe this is influenced by mailing lists which have that nature.

I don't think the idea of saving threads elsewhere ("if someone in the community feels a thread is valuable") is a workable approach, because I think this site is supposed to be that archive of Devuan-related discussions. That is indeed the reason why changing posts to me is outside of agreeable activity.

What else is this forum if not an archive of Devuan-related discussions?

golinux wrote:

The reaction to the current option sends a message that should be heeded.  My suggestion would be to experiment with the edit timeout window starting at X number of months/days (to be collectively decided and undisclosed).

Why undisclosed?

Because that's the only way to insure that the outcome will be completely random and not engineered by someone with an axe to grind.

Nothing like that if you read the above.  That's just how I would do it to make the community response completely unbiased.  Not saying it will be done that way.

Deletion of an initial post should only be allowed if there are no responses, IMO.  That's the way the Debian forum does it.  I posted a link about that a few posts up.

Suggestion . . . maybe close your eyes and let the mind and breath settle for a few minutes . . . the world appears quite different when the churning stops . . .

The reaction to the current option sends a message that should be heeded.  My suggestion would be to experiment with the edit timeout window starting at X number of months/days (to be collectively decided and undisclosed).

Why undisclosed?

So, sort of like when you complain to a Debian package manager about only supporting systemd and they reply lets see if anyone notices?

One excellent point that you made is to figure out what happens when an initial post is Deleted rather than just Edited. Does this only Delete the initial post or all the other follow-up posts as well?

Vernon wrote:

I don't see the communal loss of "idiots" editing or deleting their own posts. If anything, I would think we should be happy when the "idiots" clean up their own garbage just as I am happy when a litterer picks up their trash.

Yes but what about if somebody who has made valuable contributions is sufficiently annoyed that they start to vandalise their posts? It does happen.

If someone in the community feels a thread is valuable, they should submit it to archive.org. This can be done by anyone - not just the post owner and doesn't induce any added forum administrative burden. The stealth change of editing timeouts and the comment about possibly removing this forum has prompted me to submit a variety of Devuan forum threads which I may find useful in the future to archive.org - including this one

https://web.archive.org/web/20200920170 … hp?id=3705

People should be centered enough to not get pissed off at what somebody says. I am amazed at your energy to help people on this forum even though you apparently don't use Devuan as your daily driver. Although I don't always agree with you, I think you are an great asset to this community.

I feel that having a free (as in freedom) and vibrant forum is crucial to the success of a project. For instance, one of the reasons I choose RaspberryPi single board computers instead of more capable boards are due to the RaspberryPi's vibrant community and forums.