I found your posts interesting about systemd.  However I'm like a lot of people who are anti-systemd - kind of sick of hearing about it.  Especially as I and others have seen its destructive effect on Linux.

I would rather focus on enjoying Devuan and its derivatives and testing and giving feedback where it is needed.

I have come from Puppy Linux namely the Murga Forums and there was a lot infighting and trolling there and its my sincere hope this forum remains a relativly peaceful environment where creativity can flow.

That is pretty twisted.  It's obvious to anyone with connected brain cells that devel was a troll.  But your first post was the flame into which the moth flew.  Your continuing argumentative responses defending your poor judgment indicate that you are STILL clueless.  That's why you're getting the heat.  It seems that not all trolls are pro-systemd . . .

Indeed, seems some anti-systemd users are trolls as well.

Even if devel is a troll, if the points (no matter how badly argued) aren't refuted, people will assume that naturally they have validity. I will still refute the 'hypothetically someone else's argument', even if spurious.

You guys seem to be operating on a subset of clique knowledge where you seem to expect people to know the implied social rules of your forum, and if I'm taking the heat for that, gladly, means another user doesn't have to suffer it.

And yet a man who professes to be an intellectual has trouble reading two paragraphs requires said posts be broken down into an overly simplified idiom, likes it, but not to the degree that he follows through on it.

(Also, I take it you didn't like the post pointing out the hypocrisy of you 'not reading' a post but then 'replying' to it anyway?)

I thought you guys were extremely busy, why are you still here?

Devuan is an operating system, & this forum is for those who use it, the fact that it is systemd free is why we are here.

Actually, Devuan still has a lot of hanging dependencies.

dpkg -l | awk '$1=="ii" {print $2}' | xargs -rn1 -I+ sh -c "dpkg -L + | grep --label=+ -Hw systemd" > systemd-references.txt

Seems to certainly suggest otherwise. Renaming something to 'libsystemd0' doesn't change the fact it's a systemd surrogate.

This thread seems pretty decisive on where I stand on the matter, and this is clearly not even a valid argument.

Really?

This search for systemd in posts producing over 5 pages and a thread literally titled "When you can't tell the difference between Windows and systemd" and the fact Devuan's entire purpose is to be systemd free seems to suggest otherwise. I imagine the Windows and Microsoft quips are just as regular here.

What I really don't get is you've got a guy - devel - who only literally registered yesterday (seems for the simple intent of replying to my post as a sock account), who, not only is their name Red Hat based (when installing dev packages on a Red Hat system it ends with the term 'devel'), advocates a pro-systemd position, which by itself isn't a problem, but the second I refute their position, you guys go ape and start attacking me.

I mean, if you guys already know all the systemd rebuttals, aren't interested in systemd topics, and are opposed to systemd, why are you clicking on a thread literally titled "arguments against systemd" and then attacking the guy who is actually opposed to systemd (whilst ignoring the pro-systemd guy)?

What is this, a secretive pro-systemd club?

I wanted to both summarise and counter a lot of cliche arguments I've read.

If you feel I've misguaged Devuan (I had presumed it to be anti-systemd), I will gladly leave, including dropping all associated projects, and resume my search for an OS that is opposed to systemd in spirit.

Devuan is an operating system, & this forum is for those who use it, the fact that it is systemd free is why we are here.

If you can't make up your own mind about systemd, that's not a suitable subject matter to be discussed here, It's like talking about Microsoft, & of no relevance at all.

You're all but effectively ignoring the thread, so why waste the effort of coming here to 'not read' a post and then posting a reply to a post you've 'not read'?

I mean, who's writing the troll bait now?

If you think that reinventing the wheel is a good use of your time, go for it.   We have more important things to do.

I certainly feel I could definitely contribute, and this thread is not intended to prevent you guys/gals from your developments, nor would I expect anyone to specifically contribute or aid me or this thread as such, nor was any such help asked for. In-fact, I would go so far as to explicitly decline that help but I did not want to be rude. I'm perfectly content to debate solo, and this was my assumption from the outset.

Certainly (I was not suggesting Devuan did not have merits, just that advantages over systemd are not clearly stated), and I intend to draw attention to those merits and encourage other users to switch over to Devuan (which means ideally this thread will see re-use as a reference point so I don't have to rehash the same points when introducing them to it, I like to save myself future work, as any smart person does).

And I intend to collate such analyses here, such users don't, as you say, reinvent the wheel by ending up doing similar searches, uncovering similar information, and putting it together to form similar conclusions, all of which takes time and resources (in a technical sense, they are being indirectly won over). Hopefully they will find all that they need here. Nor do I want to make exclusive provisions for only technical users (as your code of conduct says, you welcome all types of people, and I intend to befriend all types), but also users who may find certain concepts unfamiliar, I try to avoid assuming anything about my audience if I can, so it is accessible for all, I find a lot of analyses tend to be pretty technical, and I wouldn't expect a newcomer from Windows (who asks me what Linux distro should they use and why) to understand, so don't be surprised if my comments seem 'rudimentary' or 'obvious'. One thing I've learned is to never assume someone else knows what I know when it comes to learning.

I feel that we have perhaps gotten off on the wrong foot here, and I feel, to paraphrase Thomas Hardy's poem, had the circumstances been different, we'd be - perhaps, not to assume - friends. I merely wish to offer, besides the background images and planned contributive support (such as the assimilation conversion kits), verbal rhetoric supporting Devuan. I'm not your enemy! I must admit these responses did kind of surprise me. I waited the 2 years as Devuan matured into RC (I had tried the early beta release that had only XFCE - I was the guy who made that one-off post requesting LXDE and mentioned the package modules idea on the early discussion board buried in one of the long early threads, and I was pleased when you guys added it along with KDE), and I wouldn't wait those 2 years to just scuttle it now.

Friends? Or at least maybe neutrals?

Why don't you find yourself a blog site somewhere, where it'd be good and natural to line up all those beautiful words.

Post pro-Devuan arguments not on a Devuan forum? Even if we take it strictly as being systemd, wouldn't this just iterate the point about systemd counter-arguments being 'scattered over the internet'? Why would someone be searching for a 'blog site somewhere' for arguments on why to adopt Devuan or oppose systemd?

But that's the thing, as my first post notes in the very first line (which anyone should have read upon entry), that the people of this forum already know most of these points. But it also clearly says "this is more aimed at new users who are unfamiliar with the whole systemd crisis". New users of Devuan. It does not ask forum users to contribute (nor would I expect them to), just that it's an option if they wish.

New users who aren't necessarily on your forums, nor familiar with the systemd issues.  Intelligence is only capacity to process, it does not mean one already possesses knowledge. More users means more developers, more donations, there's no logical reason why you'd want to brush why someone would want to switch from Debian to Devuan under the carpet.

For example, what do you guys do if someone asks 'but why don't you use systemd', or 'why is systemd bad', or 'why should I use Devuan instead of Debian'? What collated thread or repository of information do you point them to? Do you expect them to assume it as true without knowing the whys and hows? Init comparisons are long since gone because the nature has changed, and merely saying 'package freedom' would merely involve stating the above points (point 8, specifically), except you'd then have to answer 'why is systemd not free?'.

You guys are already here, why would I be trying to win you over to Devuan? It's the new users, the undecided you want to encourage to join.