@miroR ... If you have a git account, I'd appreciate any other feedback you have or opening of issues.

I'll try to reactivate my git account these days to be able to open those, but it's other non-related matters (not so reliable health and other business) that may not allow me to.
Thanks for your efforts, and, long time goal, with the help of our devs, let's hope we'll get a truly minimalistic Devuan, sans-dbus like Gentoo and some other *nix distros truly are.

There's a little confusion about my name, I go by dev1fanboy only on the wiki but it remains under that name so that users can still find what they are looking for. A little bit of changing in links were required due to naming the pages after releases, because it's clearer what releases they can be used for. On the other hand, because it's frustrating for users the wiki pages should mirror the git repo soon. So I'll have a contributors area and a more readable area for users.

If you could point out which links are breaking that would be helpful. I'll of course fix those, or redirect to the renamed pages.

Just looked up, This old page still holds! See:

Uninstalling dbus and *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats)
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-9 … ml#7837424
(of course, just search for string 'dev1fanboy')

However, let me see...  In this very topic, from the start:

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgra … tall-guide

and you get:

Empty page
You are not allowed to create wiki pages

and likely more on this very topic, just search for  'git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy' this time.

It's two or three, look it up that way, which is without intermediaries...

I'll likely keep with Pale Moon, I'm happy with it, and dbus isn't mandatory for it. I used to compile it in Gentoo as well. No issues. (Well... issues yes, but not those, and for other reasons... Good browser.).

If you could point out which links are breaking that would be helpful. I'll of course fix those, or redirect to the renamed pages.

About the D-Bus pages, ascii has surf2 so when ascii is released I may just use that instead of Firefox.

I don't think so... I think the man apt_preferences is the same for even Jessie, by now.

# apt-cache policy libsystemd0
libsystemd0:
  Installed: 236-3
  Candidate: 236-3
  Version table:
 *** 236-3 500
        500 tor+https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ceres/main amd64 Packages
        500 tor+https://packages.devuan.org/merged ceres/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
     236-3~bpo9+1 100
        100 tor+https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii-backports/main amd64 Packages
        100 tor+https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged testing-backports/main amd64 Packages
     232-25+deb9u1 500
        500 tor+https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 Packages
        500 tor+https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged testing/main amd64 Packages

You're right about that, apparently.

And this is only clear after repasting my own old quote:

I wrote it as kindly and I could, and I believe you're wrong by breaking links to your documents. It's even a little bit worse than just inconsiderate, but it'll be as you will decide, I can't try to exert any nicer lobbying for the non-breaking of your own pages than this... For the love of God or Free Software, whichever you like better, I linked to those pages of your even from Gentoo Forums... Why, on Earth, do would you rename pages and bring to dead links quite a few pages from also DNG Devuan Mailing List, which is also brought and accessible elsewhere as well (www.mailarchive.com IIRC or similar network name)... It's plain wrong...

Bringing a system to go without D-Bus (or dbus) is obvious good. Gentoo can do without it... And, yes, I now remember, it's not a matter of Jessie, Ascii or Ceres, Devuan/Debian as is available for us now, can't go without the low level core dbus API, the libdbus...

How do I know? Because I demonstrated it.
Back in the new, of just yester day:
sans-dbus in Devuan: low level core install of dbus remains
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1825#p7173
or the very first post, where you can find that the same libdbus-1.so.3.14.11, pasting over what I have in the dd'ed image of 2007-08-27:

# ls -l /mnt/H0827-r/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdbus-1.so.3*

lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     20 2017-06-12 21:54 /mnt/H0827-r/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdbus-1.so.3 -> libdbus-1.so.3.14.11
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 321288 2017-06-12 21:54 /mnt/H0827-r/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdbus-1.so.3.14.11

( H stands for year 2017 (my shortcut (for all of 2009-2018 and on) starting with 2009, which is just 9, 2010 ->A ... 2017 ->H sorry to have forgot to redact it to make the dates clear)

Back then it was Jessie, which I hadn't converted to sans-dbus. But in later dates of the post. it was Ascii, and now Ascii/Ceres (not clear Ceres: The libdbus is a constant, the procedure that we thought rids us of dbus, doesn't do it...

(But pls. that's not a reason to delete the post and break whatever links to it! Good practice in such situation is explanation, not obscuration...)

So, the below, IMO (and with the above facts) does not hold:

You had written about browsers that can go without dbus in your posts on that wiki, I hope you hadn't deleted those posts as well... My Pale Moon I can compile without dbus... Browser should not be an issue...

Pls. remember, and it's in that link to the new realization topic of mine linked above, I ran Gentoo truly and effectively, and ran it with all that I needed in computing (I learned, and it's in the link that bobjohnson gave in:
sans-dbus, Questions, Tips and Tricks on its Implementation
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=761#p6866
...this link:
https://github.com/apple/cups/issues/5143
more and more programs offer to run and install without dbus. Cups being one... So it's not a lost cause, I'd argue...

Nice news, if I don't miss something there...

Pls. do! And thanks in advance if you do... I learned a lot from those pages... And that was an argument that I presented to others as well, and many have taken it into consideration... (But if you want to see the hits you had, I can't help, other than saying, some of the hits you owe to my linking to it...)

Unfortunately, our cause is not over, D-Bus is still there, low-level, core... Let's do what we can to get that freedom to users like some other distros as well offter
(
which I don't know of, other than Gentoo, I'm not so familiar with distros other than Debain, Devuan and Gentoo; and also I aware that I only had incomplete distro when I removed dbus in Debian, in 2015 or 2016 using... Aaargh, where's that one, I need to post that link too...
MirDebian “WTF” Repository
https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm
[[[ Yeah, that's the tutorial and the package repo that I used back than, but I didn't have audio and my TV-cards didn't have it... and I got that page from:
Will there be a MirDevuan
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 … 6a.en.html
which luckily, I had linked to the thread of above in my reply to bobjohnson...

Maybe that's the way to go --in that thread there's also links to a mail or two, no, there's more the thread linked above, which the above email belongs to --and pls. consider that links just should not be broken, see how potentially useful it is that I can give these links here?--
And in that thread there's also not just links, but also a mail from the initiator of sans-dbus, Thorsten Glaser:
Will there be a MirDevuan
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 … 9e.en.html

Yeah, maybe that's the way to go, or at least learn from...
).

Regards!

And I don't even remember where I posted that I would contact dev1fanboy about something related to sans-dbus. I can tell that I tried (and contacted wrong Devuaner instead -- Ralph Ronquest I PM'ed, having mixed the nicknames somehow... But dev1fanboy's old email expired, which I had from Devuan DNG ML. So I have to post it here:

dev1fanboy, pls. either revert to the old locations that you previously had, or at least do not change those addresses any more...
( I'm referring to your Devuan Install, and esp. sans-dbus wiki pages. )

And also, cosider my new posts, as well as:
sans-dbus in Devuan: low level core installation of dbus remain
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1825

Correct me if I'm wrong, or confirm my research if you find it correct!

There's a fair bit of reading for the topic(s) but if I understand, there is something wrong with the Ceres APT pinning? I believe in Ceres you won't be able to avoid systemd that way if you use either dbus or xorg, and will have to make do with libsystemd0 being installed (also for ascii in some areas). I am actually considering removing that document, since it's not that useful anymore for that reason.. unless anyone finds it still useful somehow?

As far as full D-Bus removal it's very difficult if you need a fully featured browser from the Devuan repos. Firefox was mentioned mostly because you don't need to have the dbus daemon installed and running, so maybe your suggestion is not to be concerned about features and go with no dbus at all?

The changes to the wiki do seem to be confusing people, what I'll point to.. is that contributors can't easily view the source of those pages with the older location. Just as a note you can update older posts on d1g, but I may have to revert things anyway if enough people are finding it confusing. Does anyone agree with that? It would be good to have some feedback about that.

miroR wrote:

... related to sans-dbus.  ...

Hi miroR . . . I sent a short email to  dev1fanboy asking him to have a look at your post..

Thx!

And I don't even remember where I posted that I would contact dev1fanboy about something related to sans-dbus. I can tell that I tried (and contacted wrong Devuaner instead -- Ralph Ronquest I PM'ed, having mixed the nicknames somehow...

Hi miroR . . . I sent a short email to dev1fanboy asking him to have a look at your post..

dev1fanboy, pls. either revert to the old locations that you previously had, or at least do not change those addresses any more...
( I'm referring to your Devuan Install, and esp. sans-dbus wiki pages. )

And also, cosider my new posts, as well as:
sans-dbus in Devuan: low level core installation of dbus remain
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1825

Correct me if I'm wrong, or confirm my research if you find it correct!

Second, I'm on a combo ascii/ceres, so far from jessie, but maybe half way ahead of ascii... The Ceres being not yet completely formed Devuan out of Debian sources, IIUC (as  golinux pointed out to me somewhere in this forum...

And what I want to post about, this old method, these (abreviating it here, already removed systemd-related lines, and some other, but see the post further above https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=6831#p6831 for complete presentation of that old method):

That old method doesn't work anymore... It worked in Jessie way back in the days we, on Debian forum thought about the ways to pin-away in /etc/apt/preferences systemd so it not be installed... And it (EDIT just minutes after posting) didn't work in Jessie a few months ago, at the time I posted all the old posts in this topic... The remove/purge'ing and the /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01lean did remove, if we consider the dbus only, all the high-level dbus, and kept it removed, not the pinning... (END OF EDIT)

But does not work now anymore...

Here's why:

# man apt_preferences | col -b  > [this text that I'm preparing]

APT_PREFERENCES(5)                                  APT                                  APT_PREFERENCES(5)

NAME
       apt_preferences - Preference control file for APT

DESCRIPTION
       The APT preferences file /etc/apt/preferences and the fragment files in the /etc/apt/preferences.d/
       folder can be used to control which versions of packages will be selected for installation.

       Several versions of a package may be available for installation when the sources.list(5) file
       contains references to more than one distribution (for example, stable and testing). APT assigns a
       priority to each version that is available. Subject to dependency constraints, apt-get selects the
       version with the highest priority for installation. The APT preferences override the priorities that
       APT assigns to package versions by default, thus giving the user control over which one is selected
       for installation.

       Several instances of the same version of a package may be available when the sources.list(5) file
       contains references to more than one source. In this case apt-get downloads the instance listed
       earliest in the sources.list(5) file. The APT preferences do not affect the choice of instance, only
       the choice of version.

... [ 424 lines cut here ] ...

APT 1.6~alpha6                                 15 August 2015                            APT_PREFERENCES(5)

And the important part is:

The APT preferences do not affect the choice of instance, only
       the choice of version.

IOW, you can't set your /etc/apt/preferences in such way as to disable/preclude/call-it-otherwise that some package be installed.

Pls. somebody correct me if I'm wrong!

Currently, the relevant link is:

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgra … ut-dbus.md

But, I've just finished a (primitive) research on dbus (or D-Bus) in Devuan, and I've just opened:

sans-dbus in Devuan: low level core installation of dbus remain
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1825

Ah, likely. I might remove that entry from my preferences{.d/some-name}, but it's not urgent. I have no issues whatsoever with systemd (and neither dbus nor pulse). I'm also aware that I have superfluouse entry for pulseaudio, but that either doesn't hurt. And also consolekit might be a thing of the past, but also: no hurt.

And very interesting is, as well, this:

But that was only licentia poetica (I just read the whole story.) It's (probably) only sloppy programming, that case:

Yeah, that's not exploit facilitating or the next of kin to it: surveillance enabling.
And what I suspected with dbus, the reason for which I tried for years to get rid of it in my systems is those kindred just above.
If you visit this Gentoo Forum topic:
Updating and keeping your Gentoo non-poetterized
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1012022.html
and skim through the (often too verbose) introductory page or two of the first post, but remaining in the first post, then search for
And, from what steveL wrote about that *!~@ware,
It's not my words, but they bring all the main reasons not to use dbus togetther in not-too lengthy text of less then 2800 chars. I regard it as precious enough to paste it in here:

And there's other reasons and things against the use of dbus. One other notorious one is that GnuPG developers just wouldn't want to use dbus because they didn't trust it.

However, proving that it is an exploit facillitator and surveillance enabler would not be easy in the least. I'm not that advanced, and may never become. But that is my strong feeling, just like I strongly feel that systemd was made for the same, well, for the latter one: the surveillance enabling, the purpose of which is the control over users, the point of entry to intrusion into the FOSS and of its corruption. Because for the big guys who want to dominate the world, FOSS is too pure, too honest, too unfriendly to introduce control over its users.

[[ Just don't forget, anybody reading here, that those dominators have --verging often on total-- control over alomost all Windows and Mac users, desktop or smartphones or other. and much more.  What they felt they were terribly missing is Linux... Therefore the LSM and SELinux, now almost a failure... Therefore the ripoff of grsecurity code that left GNU/Linux deprived of the two geniuses who kept fixeing the kernel: spender and PaX Team... but read the links in my sig for that... ]]

Regards!

I'll need to study the above a little...

And very interesting is, as well, this:

Not that I knew of the exploits allowed, catered for, or facillitated, or similar, by dbus developers, if that is what that linke turns out to be showing (haven't yet read it).
But it's this, what my reasoning was, way back 3 and a half years ago:
Uninstalling dbus and *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats)
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992146.html
and later on there was more, but I can't find it... Hmmhh... maybe, wait...
...
I did find something...
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20 … 5.7371808e
where you can see I participated in the discussion (miro.rovis).

But I wrote much more, with very detailed explanation of my suspicion on dbus and why I was so suspicious...

Oh, yeah, this one it is:
Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 … 6a.en.html

It was harsh tones at first on almost all sides...

But it has been accepted, eventually, by our leaders. See Jaromil's email in the same thread:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 … 61.en.html
where he wrote the fine and memorable:

And I'm still happy about it . (Some people here know that I'm politically on opposite side than some of our leaders, but politics must not matter in free software)

https://github.com/apple/cups/issues/5143

cut and pasted
------------------------------------------------------------------------
jsmeix commented on Oct 20 •

Unbelievable!
It seems the D-Bus makers are intentionally malicious
because as far as I see in dbus-1.10.20 source code
there is in dbus/dbus-sysdeps.c

------------------------------------------------------------------
cut and pasted

Is this the kind of thing that made you setup a non dbus system MiroR?