Speaking of desktop environments built with alternative GUI toolkits, there's also EDE, which uses FLTK. I've found some quite informative slides that were used for a presentation of EDE (and FLTK) at FOSDEM 2013, too: http://equinox-project.org/slides/fosdem-2013-ede.pdf.

I can't really say much about Fox. The only Fox application I've been giving a try so far was Xfe, which is a nice project. However, I like PCManFM's GTK+ 2 interface much better. I'm using the GTK+ 2 default theme (Raleigh) and I think nothing really beats that in terms of clarity and, of course, "ugliness" – though Clearlooks is pretty clear as well.

 
Cool, i know of EDE but i am not interested in DEs really as i think that is too much to be any default ... so no any GUI toolkit dependancy is a major feature there i more like WM or so called Box approach, that is like user buy (of course empty) suitcase and put whatever he want there or like if you buy a new flat/house and it is empty and then user put choose furniture and place it where he decide. WM only needs to comply to general standards and nothing much else.

Yes, there are many gtk2 file managers... btw, i think SpaceFM gtk2 is better than PCManFM but that is just personal opinion

To these "ugliness" of themes i have really no idea, that is to me again per user eyes to decide, some like more black some like more light or anything in between. What is ugly for one that is beauty for another and so on.

I always say - *this* is traditional desktop metaphor

So what is this? This is Box design, it is like new empty suitcase, new empty flat, new empty house, empty... now read guidelines/suggestions and put/place there whatever you want as no one really can decide for you Also if one contionosly keep asking someone else to decide on this for him, he will by the time lost all of his freedom, etc...

(Careful you don't run afoul of some Not-Invented-Here or GPL3-or-Die zealotry!)
Cross-platform, Freed Open-Source (LGPL), suckless - what's not to love?
Though I only noticed Gentoo and Ubuntu packages (sigh).

Fox toolkit is LGPL3 and app is GPL3. If you want packages you can get deb source lab from launchpad goggles ppa, dget>dpkg-checkbuilddeps>install deps> and rebuild on Devuan for yourself by using dpkg-buildpackage or debuild whatever. First fox lib install and then Goggles app, etc...

Wouldn't it be great if synaptic respected openbox themes?

Well, it does, as long as you're using Openbox. (You're probably referring to the accompanying GTK themes.)

Speaking of desktop environments built with alternative GUI toolkits, there's also EDE, which uses FLTK. I've found some quite informative slides that were used for a presentation of EDE (and FLTK) at FOSDEM 2013, too: http://equinox-project.org/slides/fosdem-2013-ede.pdf.

I can't really say much about Fox. The only Fox application I've been giving a try so far was Xfe, which is a nice project. However, I like PCManFM's GTK+ 2 interface much better. I'm using the GTK+ 2 default theme (Raleigh) and I think nothing really beats that in terms of clarity and, of course, "ugliness" – though Clearlooks is pretty clear as well.

There's a funny article about Adwaita (Raleigh's GTK+ 3 replacement) from 2014 on blogs.gnome.org that says:

And it goes on:

Well, I do see the default GTK+ theme and on my desktop it definitely doesn't look as ugly as in the screenshot in that article.

So, if anyone would fork GTK+ 2, I would be very happy to see that happen, since as it seems, literally every program GUI on my system is based on it.

Maybe there's also a way to recreate the classic GTK+ 2 themes in FLTK, so these two would integrate seemlessly. So much for the utopian idea of the day.

… uses fox toolkit 1.7.x for GUI, … As you see you don't need to depend on any gtk nor even qt for that, but to still have a GUI if you want to. …
And when you compile fox check apps inside, something that Debian refuses to compile for some reason it seems
…
Sounds like if someone write say panel, synaptic in fox and web browser (at least in suckless way)... and couple other tiny apps, that would be pretty much usable gtk/qt free version of Desktop Linux   …

(Careful you don't run afoul of some Not-Invented-Here or GPL3-or-Die zealotry!)
Cross-platform, Freed Open-Source (LGPL), suckless - what's not to love?
Though I only noticed Gentoo and Ubuntu packages (sigh).
…
Speaking of themes,…
Isn't it a pity Dark_Star is only gtk2, and not also gtk3 (at least for now)?
Wouldn't it be great if synaptic respected openbox themes were as complete as gtk themes (not just for window frame decorations), and synaptic respected them?

Audacious for audio is awesome too!

Audacious is interesting from GUI perspective also as upstream default is gtk2, while jessie have gtk3 version but jessie-backports have qt5 version but nothing has recent one...

It seems no one listen anyone there, so ideal to be compiled

Personally use PMRP,  a YAD based program by hakerdefo and misko for radio, easily configured. Link to VSIDO discussion can be found here...
http://vsido.org/index.php?topic=1299.0

PMRP GitHub by hakerdefo here...
https://github.com/hakerdefo/pmrp

Audacious for audio is awesome too!

cheers

zephyr

https://opensource.com/article/17/1/ope … ic-players

Maybe i can recommend GogglesMM to try (not that version from repo, but recent one 1.1.8), that does not depend on gstreamer and uses fox toolkit 1.7.x for GUI, can organize music, can play internet radio, etc... As you see you don't need to depend on any gtk nor even qt for that, but to still have a GUI if you want to. Of course it is entirely different GUI lib and have nothing to do with these Gnome/RH/systemd stories.

And when you compile fox check apps inside, something that Debian refuses to compile for some reason it seems There is fox calulator, adie editor, control panel for fox, even file manager pathfiner, but someone might find xfe more useful altogh that is fox 1.6, there was sound editor i forgot how that was called now, etc...

Sounds like if someone write say panel, synaptic in fox and web browser (at least in suckless way)... and couple other tiny apps, that would be pretty much usable gtk/qt free version of Desktop Linux

I have no idea why these fox apps aren't presented better, reminds too much on Windows maybe? Or maybe worse, what isn't in RH control that shouldn't be presented anywhere, probably some deal with distros or something... no idea

.. while current MATE upstream is all gtk3.

Yeah I was looking at that, and various bits of functionality are being thrown out in Mate just like the final days of gnome2. Some GTK/gnome apps I have always liked are doing the same, Exaile has been my music player and internet radio player for years, but latest version is all GTK3.

I am starting to think GTK needs a fork as well. The Gnome/RH/systemd crowd are calling the shots when it comes to GTK3 development, and we all know where that trainwreck leads.

Xfce has also jumped the gtk3 shark . . .

From developer perspective i guess there is no what else to do with gtk2 version anymore, that is long time stable.

But if someone like MATE or XFCE all gtk2 to keep going they should do like for example TDE guys do. KDE3 was dropped back in 2008. so 9 years ago but they, still manage to get that going by maintaining it, latest release  R14.0.4 in november 2016 or so.

http://trinitydesktop.org/

BTW i am not interested in DEs, i use just openbox wm. Currently on Devuan 1.0 I don't have gtk3 installed even qt4 is not installed, nor pulseaudio, nor... yeah, i am pretty minimal but all what i do serves me well, kind of i can't decide really (as that would be only i guess) on what is good for someone else - so i can only say - here are solutions possible, but really it is up to you.

It is, somewhat halfly still is mostly gtk2 but wants gtk3 some mate apps are gtk3... while current MATE upstream is all gtk3.

Xfce has also jumped the gtk3 shark . . .

current MATE upstream is all gtk3.

Thanks for the info, smoki. Sad to hear. Fortunately, as long as Devuan follows a fixed release model, I won't have to fix theme breakages more than once every few years. I can live with that.

It is, somewhat halfly still is mostly gtk2 but wants gtk3 some mate apps are gtk3... while current MATE upstream is all gtk3.