zapper wrote:

Whenever HyperbolaBSD is finished...

I wouldn't hold your breath nor stake your hopes on a project which makes such "hyperbolic" statements as:
"Due to the Linux kernel rapidly proceeding down an unstable path..." and talks a lit about GPL3 while planning to base its project on code which is anything but.

zapper wrote:

I have interest in this because of wine-staging doesn't work in it

So you have an interest in an, at this stage, theoretical project from developers that want use the OpenBSD kernel, GNU userland, remove all firmware and "liberate" the kernel, just so that you can run wine and MS Windows programmes? I see.

zapper wrote:

Edit here, OpenBSD disabled the mutlilib in wine for security reasons,

The OpenBSD project don't do any work on wine. The wine port has been incomplete / broken / abandoned for years.

Yes I have interest, I want my operating system to be as secure as possible while still being able to do what I want on it. Only one of my laptops will ever have wine on it though. 

PS, I don't need to hold my breath,  And by the way, don't insult me.  It will turn into a flame war...

I am tired of being pissed, let's just say...

Whenever HyperbolaBSD is finished...

I wouldn't hold your breath nor stake your hopes on a project which makes such "hyperbolic" statements as:
"Due to the Linux kernel rapidly proceeding down an unstable path..." and talks a lit about GPL3 while planning to base its project on code which is anything but.

So you have an interest in an, at this stage, theoretical project from developers that want use the OpenBSD kernel, GNU userland, remove all firmware and "liberate" the kernel, just so that you can run wine and MS Windows programmes? I see.

The OpenBSD project don't do any work on wine. The wine port has been incomplete / broken / abandoned for years.

I didnt know pulseaudio is Lennart's
LOL

You mentioned Slackware. Obviously you didn't know that 14.2 implements pulseaudio as the default sound server and its not straightforward to remove. So presumably you also didn't know you were running it...?

You've made a black and white statement about systend in Debian and here you admit that you actually have nothing to back that up except for some "complaints"?

The third and final, bit of Poettering software is avahi.  He did not to my knowledge write any of the "*kits" as some have incorrectly stated above.

Devuan's reason for existing has to do with Debian making retarded decisions on its users' behalf. If Systemd was an optional install and essential packages didn't depend on it, then all would have been well, but nope...

And, I think that's all Devuan needs to be: an actively maintained Debian without Systemd.

Why should it try to be anything else? I don't like most distros that are "designed" like Christmas lights and try to "reinvent the wheel" of Unix-like OSes. Let the individual decide how his or her system should be configured.

It will get harder to do that I am sure, but yeah you make a good point.

And, I think that's all Devuan needs to be: an actively maintained Debian without Systemd.

Why should it try to be anything else? I don't like most distros that are "designed" like Christmas lights and try to "reinvent the wheel" of Unix-like OSes. Let the individual decide how his or her system should be configured.

It's rather useless to ennumerate what Devuan should be doing unless you are willing to actually do it.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I meant it as a possible suggestion. I don't really have programming skills beyond some command line, and not much else.

Most of it isn't anything much... I know how to use things for my own personal use and not much else.

Do what you guys need to do, but I was throwing out my thoughts.  You do have a point.

If nothing else though, ditching forking debian and being your own brand would be cool.

But yeah, do what is needed.

I realize what I am saying is from my own tower.  I probably don't have a clue how much work any of that would be.  It would be good if you could accomplish it all, long term, but such things might not be your aim and could destroy the project if done wrong or would be too tedious...

So yeah, probably not worth it.   

You have enough trouble to work with already probably, forget I said anything.

debugging is something I am a little bit familiar with also, but fixing bugs... lol no way...

Hey, at least I am honest...

Was surprised that some members not aware of pulseaudio and systemd written by the same 'person' to put it nicely. Because most of his stuff is bloatware I wonder if he worked for M$ at one point! :->
And why name a running process rt-kit daemon? Apart from bad naming on another forum thread I read it was a potential security hole in respect of real-time processing!

Debian could ditch more of this bloatware and go in its own independent direction. Hyperbola a much smaller distro is already doing something similar.

why not cut, networkmanager, pulsecrap, system dumb libraries  and even dbus out in future?

Not like you cant make other options open.  dhcpcd-gtk works well enough, if dhcpcd has no dbus dependency.

Yes you would have to become more independent long term, but it could be worth it long term. The other option is to continue what your doing and to eventually struggle with  fighting against redhat's trash.

It is a hard road though which should not be taken lightly though. 

Whenever HyperbolaBSD is finished...  I hope devuan  or someone  from devuan will make a derivative...

I have interest in this because of wine-staging doesn't work in it but could be made to work if someone wants to. 

Edit here, OpenBSD disabled the mutlilib in wine for security reasons, but that will likely remain the same.

Not all of this is directly devuan related, and I don't know if anyone will take this seriously, just putting it out there.

Take whatever you want from it as long as you don't use it against me.

OT: Hoping you'll change that behavior.  Come play with us!

I just need to sit down and invest four brain cells into an automated way to download the logs, so I can keep up to date with the conversations.  I always seem to dip-in during dead hours

. . .I rarely use IRC.

OT: Hoping you'll change that behavior.  Come play with us!

So why so many complaints on #systemd Freenode from Debianers?

Depends on the community you frequent, I guess; thanks for sharing that, as I rarely use IRC.  I was thinking of the "official" forums (FDN).  The attitude is implicitly pro-choice so long as Debian keeps other avenues open and doesn't completely restrict init choice.  A lot of users there are renowned for derivates that use sysv or systemd and usually get along; the point is choice.

Debian's implementation of systemd is fine

So why so many complaints on #systemd Freenode from Debianers?

99.99% Archers didn't switch to OpenRC, and remaining 0.01% did it because they HEARD systemd is pure evil...I don't care what NASA uses nowadays, back in the day they chose YellowDogLinux, the worst distro ever for PPC machines.

This seems awfully familiar...oh, right.

Archers have always had a tendency to go with the flow and whatever performs best; their culture is a nonsequitur because their goals are oriented with that mindset.  Debian users' attitudes towards systemd range between apathetic and complicit, and there's a good reason: most of the professionals have fled to other projects, including Devuan.  Debian's implementation of systemd is fine, and I recommend dropping by their community to test your beliefs about systemd, otherwise I'm going to [continue to] assume that you're just trolling ours. 

As far as this community is concerned, it's more about maintaining software choice, even if that choice means a derivative of the mothership.  Systemd is already a hard dependency in many programs, and that trend will probably continue if no one does anything about it.  If intrusive software is properly configured, it's still intrusive software.

Since we're on nonsequiturs, I'd like to announce that I baked potatoes in the oven for the first time ever.  They were delicious.

mt12345 wrote:

Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.

lmfao.

Yes you are right, systemd IS a mess.
But 99.99% Archers didn't switch to OpenRC, and remaining 0.01% did it because they HEARD systemd is pure evil.
And I bet they heard it from Debian users.

Actually I did read it.
Very good post, confirming what I mentioned before: Debian camp screwed up.
I don't care what NASA uses nowadays, back in the day they chose YellowDogLinux, the worst distro ever for PPC machines.